Proposal to improve track-muting experience

Aeros Loop Studio Feature Requests
1

Hi there.

UPD: After reading this topic User Assigned Function to Buttons , I think it’s a better solution compared to what I wrote initially. Having button functions totally customizable, I could probably make it so that in 6x6 mode, the leftmost button would do “Next track” on a short click, but “Select part” on a long click (I don’t have too many song parts anyway, so long-clicking for them is fine); and then make it so that the middle button just does the muting with truly one click.

So I’ll leave the old contents just for reference.

Original message

I recently received my Aeros, my firmware version is 2.11.1 (latest), and overall I like it, thanks for your awesome work on that device. However, the most annoying thing for me is trying to mute a track at the right moment (which I want to do quite often). To mute a track, we need to hit the RPO button twice, and if I’m also playing something while muting a track (at my own tempo), it becomes a huge challenge to double-tap properly, because the tempo of double-tapping is often different from the tempo of me playing. As a result, I often tap it wrong and get frustrated.

I see at least two ways to improve that experience a lot:

  1. The cheapest way I could think of is: make it so that the track gets muted when a button is released second time, not pressed. This way, I would “cock the gun” in advance by double-tapping and holding that button, and then “fire” the muting by just releasing the button at the right time. As of 2.11.1, if I try to double-tap and hold the button, it will mute immediately and then undo/redo, which doesn’t make sense anyway, so we’re not sacrificing anything here.

  2. Another way to improve it is as follows since most of the time I actually want mute to happen at the end of the measure, we could just make it so that double-tapping schedules the muting at the end of the measure. Additionally it could also mute immediately if user taps 3rd time before the end of the measure.

Perhaps those could be customizable somewhere in the settings, globally or per-song, I don’t know. But I’d really appreciate if I had it somehow.

Does it make sense to you guys?

Thanks

1 Like
2

I like this idea. :slight_smile:

The actual ability to implement it is really dependent on a variety of factors (e.g. there could possibly be conflicting settings and/or default configurations etc), just as a general disclaimer. That being said, this looks like a customizeable setting that will really add to the Aeros experience.

@DavidPackouz take a look.

3

Thanks for the response @BeatBuddy_Support

Two things which I wanted to add:

First, as I mentioned in the beginning of the message, I actually think that total configurability of the key’s functions (as described in User Assigned Function to Buttons) would be a lot better and universal solution, compared to what I wrote initially. What do you think of this?

That said, I can see that this total configurability (if it’s going to be implemented at all) would take quite a long time to implement, so in the short term I’d appreciate something simpler (like the initial proposal you seem to like). And that brings us to the second thing:

After reflecting on the topic one more day, I think I have a better idea of what could be done in the short term. For me and some other people on this forum, muting is more important than overdubbing (and in 6x6 mode I might not need overdubbing at all), so I was thinking of the ways to swap the functions. How about adding an option to configure the following for an RPO button when the track is being played:

  • On a single short tap, when the button is released, mute the track
  • On a long tap, overdub
  • On a double tap, undo last layer; and for undoing everything in that track we might use a double tap where the second press is long.

Note: long tap is better than double tap for overdubbing, because if it was a double tap, we’d have to mute the track on the first button release, and immediately unmute it on the next button press; that would be not acceptable. But with a long tap for overdubbing and muting on release (not press), there is no ambiguity.

For undoing though, even that short muting is okay.

1 Like
4

This is an great Idea!!!
I agree that muting with one Tap is extremely important to me too! Double Tap for Mute is in the real world totally useless.

5

Hi @dimonomid thanks for your suggestions!

I do hesitate to change the basic functions of the Aeros buttons because even though we are currently using the most common paradigm for looping (tap to record/overdub, hold to undo/redo, double tap to stop/mute), many players still are saying that the Aeros is a bit complicated for them. Usually this is because they’re used to single track looping with something like the ditto, and they have never used parallel tracks or song parts in a looper - but we’re trying to use as much of the controls that players are comfortable with as possible.

However, we do plan on making a setting to mute tracks at the end of the meausure/track, so that should give you less stress to get the mute timed correctly. This should be done

Also, we are including an Aeros Mode with the MIDI Maestro, which will allow you to mute/unmute any track with a single tap (as well as many other functions). (Please note that Aeros support for the MIDI Maestro mode is scheduled to be completed next month). You will be able to map the MIDI Maestro buttons to any Aeros command so you can set it up as you like.

1 Like
6

Thanks for the response @DavidPackouz. However,

we are currently using the most common paradigm for looping (tap to record/overdub, hold to undo/redo, double tap to stop/mute)

Sorry but double tap to mute is not most common paradigm for loopers, at all. It’s acceptable to use double tap to stop everything, but muting one track should take a single click.

Usually this is because they’re used to single track looping with something like the ditto, and they have never used parallel tracks or song parts in a looper

I also don’t think it’s 100% the case. Take e.g. RC30 by Boss, it’s a quite popular piece of gear, having just two buttons, and yet having two parallel tracks and allowing people to mute a track with a single click.

Also, we are including an Aeros Mode with the MIDI Maestro, which will allow you to mute/unmute any track with a single tap (as well as many other functions)

As mentioned in another thread, let’s please not rely on Maestro too much. E.g. I personally don’t have any room for it. Aeros could be very self-sufficient if done right. It has a huge potential, thanks for making it!

However, we do plan on making a setting to mute tracks at the end of the meausure/track, so that should give you less stress to get the mute timed correctly. This should be done

Cool, but please also make the option to RPM (record/play/mute), as was mentioned in another thread. As I said it my post above, I actually think that RPM would be even more important than muting at the end of the measure; double-tapping for muting is still suboptimal.

Overall, thank you, and looking forward for the changes!

4 Likes
7

I understand what you are saying. But keep in mind who are the potential users of the Aeros. A typical Ditto user isn’t the one who will be mostly interested in the Aeros. Its the Boss 505 or Boomerang user that will get your looper. If you built your looper around the mindset of Ditto users you might be on the wrong road. RPM Is very important it think. And this :

  • On a single short tap, when the button is released , mute the track
  • On a long tap, overdub
  • On a double tap, undo last layer; and for undoing everything in that track we might use a double tap where the second press is long.

Is VERRRRY Elegant way. Cool Idea! @dimonomid

2 Likes
8

Oh … One more thing.

About “double tapping”. One big problem is that you always have a fixed timespan you can double tap. Say one half second. if you are slower you accidentally overdub which is very bad.
If it would be possible to calibrate this time by the time signature of the song it might be a bit better to use. Hope you understand. If doubletapping time would be say an eights of the song tempo you can double tap in the groove. Not some fast jittering which has nothing to do with the rhythm of the song.

but still. it is not very usable :wink:

2 Likes
9

See my reply in bold

1 Like
10

I hear you guys. I’m putting the RPM setting on the development list. I’ll try to get it done sooner rather than later.

As far as the alternate system that @Bogii suggested, we need to investigate how that would work in each state the Aeros can be in to make sure it won’t break anything, so if we do this, it will be further out in the development timeline.

@Pim yes, the Aeros MIDI functionality will work with any standard MIDI controller. We have always kept all of our products on an open standard. Apple’s closed ecosystem annoys me too :roll_eyes:

1 Like
11

Hmm, could you clarify what “alternate system” do you mean? From what I see, what @Bogii and I suggested is exactly the way to implement RPM, and you seem to be okay with RPM.

So when the track is playing, in either 2x2 or 6x6 mode, RPM button would do this:

That ^ is RPM, right? Then what alternate system are you hesitant about?

12

Hi,
If I understood it correctly, RPM means you tap the button once, the Aeros would record, tap the button a second time and the track goes into Play Mode, tap it a third time and the track would stop. EDIT: Sorry, I meant mute.

No double tapping or long tap needed für RPM.

13

No double tapping or long tap needed für RPM.

Well, what we have currently is RPO, so when the track is being played, the button is only supposed to do the Overdub thing. No double tapping or long tap needed for RPO either, right? But since undoing and muting are also the features people need, long press of the Overdub button does the undo, while double tap of the Overdub button does the muting.

Same with RPM. The main function is muting, and that’ll be done with a single click; however undoing is also very useful sometimes. Overdubbing I don’t care too much about, but the proposed scheme solves it perfectly in my opinion, so why not.

14

Hi @David and @dimonomid

I am Sorry. I was not thinking about it right with supporting this layout:

-On a single short tap, when the button is released , mute the track
-On a long tap, overdub
-On a double tap, undo last layer; and for undoing everything in that track we might use a double tap where the second press is long.

Ok i have to apologize. I was to fast with the above statement because I can imagine a way to do it much better and I see the problems with the double tap.

I made an layout how (in my opinion) the Aeros would be the best tool for Live Looper Singer Songwriter guys who are building Loopes live without any pre recorded stuff AND most important have real control over anything.

This Button layout is meant to work with Synced Freeform (No Tempo predefined but the tracks are multiples) or Quantisised Mode. Of course it can be used in total Freeform too. The Button behavior stays same for 2X2 and 6X6.

Behavior of the Buttons:

Play/Stop All Button:

Single Tap

  • Stop playback of all Tracks

  • Resume playback of all Tracks

Double Tap

  • Immediately stop playback of all Tracks

Hold when playing!!!

  • Ques Overdub on the next pressed Track button

Hold when stopped

  • Delete Everything

Select Part Button:

Single Tap

  • Select next song Part

Hold

  • Open the Mixer

Track Buttons::

- Single Tap

  • Start recording ( if track is blank)

  • Stop (NOT MUTE!)

  • Press again when stopped -> Start playback next time any other Track restarts

  • Press again when all Tracks are stopped -> Track stars alone

Double Tap

  • NO FUNCTION!!!

Hold while playing

  • Undo most recent layer

  • Continue to hold: undo 2nd layer

  • If all layers undone or just one layer was recorded: erase Track

  • NO REDO

Hold while Recording

  • Erase Track without playback (IMPORTANT in case of fucked up record :wink: )

Hold while stopped

  • Erase Track

Mixer stays as it is.
This way you can select if you want to mute a track (in Mixer Mode) or Stop it. This is super important if I for example have Rhythm on track 1 and stopped track 2 for talking to people or let them clap or whatever and then start loop two when I want without being forced to look where the loops stratpoint is.

With this layout you have total control over all important functions without any double tap. I know there is no REDO but if you need this functionality just use 6X6 Mode and you have enough tracks. Deleting and getting rid of things fast is MUCH more important in live use if something goes wrong.

This would be my dream Looper :smiley:

I will Post this in a extra Threat too :slight_smile:

15

@Bogii your last message perfectly confirms the point that total button customization would be a killer feature: people would be able to do whatever they like, like you’d do what you described, and play with it immediately.

However, realistically, I believe that this layout you proposed is too big of a change to expect Singular Sound to actually implement it. For now, we gotta adapt to the current way of things, just need to change the most annoying parts (which is, at least, muting on double tap), that’s what my proposal tries to address. It’s a lot less invasive and thus more likely to be implemented in the short term.

And in the long term, I’d rather expect them to implement total button configurability rather than particular layouts which are very different from the original layout.

Does it make sense?

2 Likes
16

@dimonomid

It does make sense ;).

It is more likely that Singular will or should make it customizable so everyone can adjust whatever they need. I just wanted to make my point here and in fact it was veeerry interesting for myself too to do this. ;D I never was thinking in such an “complete” way about it.

However. I always thought of the Aeros to be THE GAMECHANGER. And if they could make it really customizable it would be exactly that.

I know it won’t happen fast but I also think they should know that we want it to be like this :wink:

Best Greetings

1 Like
17

@DavidPackouz I just checked out 2.15.5 changelog and was sad to find nothing related to muting. Could you clarify what’s your priority of improving the muting experience? E.g. in your “coming next” section there is “Advanced crossfade / fade in/out algorithm”, which seems like a much more advanced feature than improving the muting, and yet you decided to focus on it, instead of the muting.

Two things which I need badly in Aeros:

  1. Mute at the end of the measure / end of loop. Note that I should also be able to mute multiple tracks at once: during a single measure / loop, I can quickly do those actions: “mute track, next track, mute track”. The effect of those actions is that on the next measure / loop, both tracks (that I marked to be muted) are muted.

  2. Single-click muting. I’m longing for some kind of settings which would allow me to mute with a single click. I’m not insisting of the exact alternative layout, but the proposed one was this:

I’m not saying it should be the default, but I think there is no harm in adding an option for this kind of layout, what do you think?

And again, I’d appreciate if you could share what your priorities are.

Thanks.

2 Likes
18

@dimonomid the reason that we’re working on the fade algorithms first is that this will be used in the muting system. When you mute or unmute a track you need a quick fade out/in to avoid the popping sound.

We are currently working on the mute at the end of the measure/track setting. I hope to get it into the next release or the one after that.

We do plan to make a RPM setting – Record/Play/Mute – this would give you the single tap to mute, at the expense of having overdubs. We don’t want to change the tap/double tap/hold command system too much because it will cause a lot of confusion and greatly complicate the product.

Another option is to use the MIDI Maestro for instant access to mute/unmute for each individual track. We hope to have that functionality built into the Aeros firmware in the next month or two.

2 Likes
19

@DavidPackouz thanks for getting back to me and for clarifying things.

Great, thank you.

While I do see the point about confusion, I wouldn’t like to give up on overdubs completely. So if you don’t want to change the layout much, would an option at least just swap overdub/mute functions?

So right now, single click means overdub, double click means mute. We’re talking about adding an option to make single click to mean mute. But instead of throwing overdub away completely, can we at least make it so that double click will mean overdub? It’s not ideal because there will be a short muting in between of the clicks (that’s the problem which my earlier proposal addresses), but it’s still better than having no overdub at all.

Will there be a MIDI command to start/stop overdub of the currently selected track? So that if I have RPM option turned on, I could use some simple single-button midi controller sending that overdub command via MIDI, to get single-click overdub. I don’t see it in the list of MIDI commands you posted: Aeros MIDI Commands

20

That’s an option to consider.

One thing to think about is that once the mute happens at the end of the track or measure, the double tap to mute might not be too bad, because you’re not trying to time the mute action precisely.